Jump to content
maverick528

Provably fair and Primedice RNG

Recommended Posts

Provably fair on PrimeDice and the RNG

Most people after hitting a long red streak and busting all their money start claiming that PD is not provably fair, and that numbers are not random.

Lets deal first with the provably fair thing. There is now a definition of it in Wikipedia, if u want to take a look.

"The comedy duo Bud Abbott and Lou Costello resolved disputes mathematically. Abbott would think of a number 1 to 10. If Costello guessed the number, then the controversy would be resolved in his favour. Otherwise Abbott would prevail.
Whenever Costello guessed, Abbott would report that he had a different number in mind. Costello puzzled over his losing streak. Why does Abbot always report that Costello picked the wrong number?"
Cited from a book by Roy Sorensen.

Its obvious that Costello has no way to verify what number is on Abbot´s mind, so Abbot changes the number he is "thinking" so that he always wins.

And some people think the same happens on PD, that the number is changed to HIGH when they are betting LOW, and vice versa.

Provably fair means that there is a way to verify that PD does not change what it rolls depending on your behaviour, that is, the number rolled is totally independent of how much you are betting, if you are betting high or low, if you are betting in manual or auto, the time you take between rolls and the multiplier you are using.
But to understand how the roll verifier works, we must also understand how the Primedice Random Number Generator or RNG works, so lets talk about that.

The RNG of PD uses three numbers to generate the roll numbers that you see: 1) a server seed 2) a user seed that can be generated by PD, but you also have the option to set it and 3) the roll number, called nonce(after you change seeds, when you roll the first time nonce is 1, if you roll again nonce is 2 and so on until you change seeds again).
The rolled numbers that you see are each calculated using the three numbers we mentioned by very complex math functions, first HMAC SHA512 and then some extra manipulation.
The user seed and the nonce number are things that you can see anytime. PD shows you the server seed in an encrypted way while you are using it. When you change seeds, you can see your previous server seed and you can verify all your previous rolls. There is no way that PD can cheat on you, because the mathematical formula it uses for producing the roll numbers produces the same results if you use the same three numbers as inputs.
There are 2 elevated to 256 different server seeds, this is a very very big number so that server seeds never repeat.

The important thing to understand is that when two new seeds are set, all of the rolls are already known before you roll anything. 
That is, somebody at Primedice office looking at the two seeds can make a looong printout saying the number that will appear on roll #1, which number will appear on roll #2 and so on.
ALL OF THE NUMBERS that you will roll are already known even before you start betting. (They are not known by you, unfortunately).
What PrimeDice uses is a precalculated SEQUENCE of PRE ROLLED PSEUDO RANDOM numbers.
The numbers ARE NOT RANDOM at all. That is why very long sequences of high or low numbers can appear, although the calculus of probabilities show that is almost impossible, we all saw this situation.
It is not true what some people say that one rolled number is independent of the previous rolled one, probability theory says that, but ONLY for truly random numbers, this does NOT apply on PD.
There IS a relationship between a number that is rolled and the next, but its sooooo complex that so far nobody could calculate it.
It also can happen that using certain combinations of seeds some numbers will be rolled several times, and others will never be rolled even if you keep trying with the same seeds for millions of rolls. For example 77.77.

Some people also say that if you change the seeds it means nothing.
Lets suppose you are on a sequence of rolls, you are betting low and you get a very long streak of reds.
When you change seeds, you arrive to a totally different sequence of roll numbers, that is also unknown to you, so it can be better or worse than the one you were using previously.
Maybe if you kept rolling on your original sequence you were about to reach a zone of lots of greens when you left it, you don´t know that.
The fact is: changing seeds DOES change the situation, but you don´t know exactly in which way, if it´s for better or for worse.

 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well written. We've actually got a very cool thing coming out very soon which someone of your knowledge will really like. We're going to get this aspect of provably fair a lot more mainstream & push for companies which are currently neglecting it to oblige. People get scammed everyday by corrupt casinos. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good Stuff... Very informative... Someone else here posted a link to a script to generate your own client seed randomly...
I was wondering how it would be possible to manually put a randomly generated seed from that script in?
Is there a function on PD to do that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, ullikah said:

Good Stuff... Very informative... Someone else here posted a link to a script to generate your own client seed randomly...
I was wondering how it would be possible to manually put a randomly generated seed from that script in?
Is there a function on PD to do that?

TY.

On PD main screen you click "MORE" on top of the page,  and choose "Fairness".

If you click on RERANDOMIZE, the server seed is changed AND primedice assigns you a random client seed, that you can manually change at that time.

Just click on the field "Client seed" and you can type a new client seed of your choice, can be a random one generated the way you asked, or it can also be a meaningful character string. I have a theory that if you use "EDWARD" as a Client seed you will win a lot.......

Probably there is also a way of doing this using the API, have not used it yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/2/2017 at 02:01, Noeprellik1 said:

So lets say if I dont change seeds and stop betting. Than i continue my previous roll ( same seeds) one week later

Are the result will remain the same?

Yes, that's a big part of being provably fair - the roll numbers are predetermined based on the combination of the client seed, server seed, and incremented nonce. This is what prevents a betting establishment from dynamically generating the roll numbers you get based on the bets you make, because the numbers are already set in stone once the seeds are chosen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×